Clinical anxiety, based on a professional diagnosis, is often a consideration among autistic children challenged by heightened sensory perceptions and external triggers. Parents can learn more about anxiety by developing an awareness of their children’s behavior related to anxiety and come up with refreshing responses.

 In this third in a three-part series on autism and anxiety, several ideas for understanding anxiety and how parents can develop a toolbox for coping with emotional situations are presented, and how Invirtua’s interactive avatars can help. Also included is a live demo of an Avatar Adventure, featuring Pooch and Leslie Baldwin.

Here is our recording of the recent webinar by Gary Jesch and Leslie Baldwin – Autism  and Anxiety Part 3. 

For more information, contact us using the CHAT function on this page.

LINKS TO HANDY RESOURCES FOR PARENTS –

YouTube Playlist of all Invirtua Webinar Recordings related to Autism and Anxiety

PDF files you can download and share

Sensory Diet Activities

Sensory Check List

Sensory Processing Materials

Profectum Parent Toolbox

Sensory Smarts Working with Schools

SENSORY PROCESSING ACTIVITY PRODUCTS

Sensory Kids Store

Southpaw Website

Therapy Shoppe 

Autism and Anxiety Part 3 Webinar Transcript

Introductions [0:00:00]

Gary Jesch:

Hello, welcome. Hi, everybody. Great to have you here with us this afternoon. And I’d like to greet you all and just say how much we appreciate that you’ve come to join us today here at Invirtua. I’m Gary Jesch, your host for today’s program.

And, once again, I’m happy to introduce our partner here at Invirtua, Leslie Baldwin. She’s standing by or sitting by,I guess the case would be, right, Leslie?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yes, I am sitting here. I am, you know, ready to go and excited to be here. Thank you.

Gary Jesch:

Hey, you bet. So, this is part three of our presentation that we’ve been working on about autism and anxiety. And, you know, after you’ve done two parts, the third one’s got to be pretty darn good, right? But I think we’re well prepared, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

I hope so. I hope everyone finds it really helpful and informative.

Gary Jesch:

Exactly. Now, a bunch of the research that was done for this particular presentation was done by a young man, Andrew Ciampi. And Andrew is actually the author of the part three document on our blog at invirtua.com.

And so, we’d like to thank Andrew and, you know, I think there’s a good reason to recommend that people go to our blog and see the entire collection of work that we’ve done around this topic.

So, you’ll find Part One of autism and anxiety. Part Two, which is a good job by Leslie, where you did a lot of work around sensory processing. And now today’s work, we’re taking a look at clinical anxiety. Yeah, Leslie, you know, some of our people may not quite have gotten to know you yet. So, tell us a little bit about yourself, and what brings you here to Invirtua to talk about this today?

Leslie Baldwin:

Well, I am here today. My background is in education, and I’ve worked as a teacher with autistic children and young adults, for about the past 25 years.

Most recently, I worked at Texas Children’s Hospital, where I managed a program for children on the spectrum. It was a therapeutic program on kind of a multi-disciplinary and I just love working with the kids and the families. And I’m excited to be here and help share some of my, you know, experiences and knowledge that I’ve learned over the years.

Gary Jesch:

Well, thank you, that’s gonna be great, I’m sure. And I’m Gary Jesch. And I just got to look over here because I’m, not only am I the host here today, but I’m also the producer. So,  I look over here.

And then a little later, I’m going to look over here, because we’re going to be giving you a demo of our live animation technology and our Avatar Adventures live in real time, here as part of our program today. So that’ll be fun. Leslie, you’ve always enjoyed those, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

I love it. I always have a great time interacting with the characters, the Avatars I should say. There’s a lot of fun. And, you know, you can’t help but love them.

Gary Jesch:

Brings up the little girl in you too, right? That’s the best part.

Leslie Baldwin:

Absolutely. Yeah, there’s nothing more fun than being able to be creative and play. So…

Gary Jesch:

There you go. And as you can see from the story that I have being a pioneer, actually in live animation technology. I’ve been playing with this and practicing with this for many years now and I still do love it.

I started out around 25 years or so ago, introducing performance animation where we kind of worked behind the scenes to puppeteer these Avatars that we built on the computer. And so, they’re computer generated, we call them Avatars. And I call myself an Avatar pilot when I’m doing this kind of work.

And so, here at Invirtua, I’ve been able to bring that technology and to help children that are working with things like autism and other developmental disorders, to give them a hand, to reduce the anxiety, that’s one reason why we’re so interested in it right, Leslie?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah, absolutely.

Gary Jesch:

And to bring play to the desktop in a live interactive way so that our Avatars are – what we kind of think of them as, sidekicks to the autistic child. And we’re gonna get into that a little bit more during our presentation, but I’m sure happy to be here. So, Leslie, I think we’re about ready to dive into this topic. What do you think?

Leslie Baldwin:

I think so, I’m ready.

What We Mean by ‘Clinical Anxiety’ [0:05:00]

Gary Jesch:

So, you know, when we speak of clinical anxiety, just so that we make it clear from the very beginning, clinical anxiety is what we’re saying is where a psychiatrist actually diagnoses this condition, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah.

Gary Jesch:

Does that make sense, rather than common anxiety?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah, I think, you know, I think anxiety is typical. We all experience, you know, some level of anxiety every day. And not all anxiety is bad or difficult to deal with. A low level of anxiety kind of helps propel us forward sometimes.

But, you know, what we’re talking about is an anxiety level that is really prohibiting a child or adult from being able to function fully in their life where they’re not, it’s so severe that they really, it interferes with their ability to really function in many different typical environments.

Gary Jesch:

Exactly. And in Andrew’s research, he found that, according to one of the associations that 4 out of 10, 2 out of 5 people that are autistic, actually have also a clinical diagnosis of anxiety. Did I get that number right?

Leslie Baldwin:

I think so. And, you know, I think, Gary, you know, I would like to see more studies being done to really track that because I think it’s difficult to know, for sure exactly what the numbers are. However, I think that’s a fair assessment.

But I do believe, with my years of working with children and young adults on the spectrum, anxiety plays a big role in really prohibiting them from being able to do some of the things that many of us take for granted, whether it’s social anxiety, going to a new environment, or doing something different that’s out of their routine. That can all be pretty anxiety provoking for many of them.

Anxiety as a Feeling and Sensory Overloads [0:07:25]

Gary Jesch:

Exactly, yeah. You know what, the other thing to remind people is that anxiety is an emotion, right? It’s a feeling. So, it comes from that part of our identity, our persona, where other feelings come from.

And so, what you’re looking at right here is just one quarter of what we call the Feelings Wheel. We introduced this back in our previous webinars, so you can look it up there and on our website. The Feelings Wheel is actually an interesting kind of tool to understand more about anxiety and when we speak of it, the associated feelings with anxiety.

So, if you take a look here, in this side, that starts with fearful around the center. Okay, so what we’re saying that fearful is one definition of the emotion. And then off of it, we can see that there are other emotions that we can define or name. Using these labels, we can maybe have a little more understanding, being scared, being anxious, insecure, and so forth.

And so, we focus in on the section around anxiousness. We can see it’s connected with feelings like overwhelm, and worry, being frightened or feeling helpless, okay? So that’s telling us, you know, that we’re dealing with feelings, and when psychiatrist talks about a diagnosis of clinical anxiety, that’s kind of the area of feelings that they’re working in, but then these show up as things like, depression, right?

That feeling of worry, and inferiority, maybe that’s just won’t go away, keeps us,  a person from, you know, reaching their full potential, right?

Other things like ADHD, OCD, compulsive disorders, right? Those are things that may be included in the write up that a psychiatrist is putting down, when he’s speaking of clinical anxiety.

And then, you know, the area that you really specialize in, or that you paid a lot of attention to, let’s say, of sensory overload. Can you tell us a little bit about how sensory overload leads to these feelings?

Leslie Baldwin:

Well…

Gary Jesch:

Or the result of them?

Leslie Baldwin:

Right, you know, by report and observation and lots of studies and talking and gaining information from those who experience those that are on the autism spectrum, I think the sensory systems, for many of them can be slightly different. With the neurodiversity, the way your body reacts to stressors, and how they experience things from a sensory standpoint, it can be quite different.

And when you combine that with other challenges, you really need to look beyond, like the behavior response that you’re seeing because usually you don’t see someone who might have their heart rate elevated. They might start sweating; they might feel sick to their stomach. Or their head might hurt.

And, you know, sometimes they aren’t able to really explain what’s going on. But what you want to do is look at some of the root causes, if you can help them, you know, really learn some coping mechanisms to help alleviate that.

And so, that way, they’re able to more fully participate, you know, with whatever activity is going on.

Gary Jesch:

So, if moms and parents of autistic children are informed a little more about the relationship, of the feelings to maybe even the physical environment or whatever, right, and that’s going to help, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah, I think the more you can understand your child or understand yourself, the more you can get to understand what are the circumstances where there is like a certain activity that brings us out, or a certain environment, where you see their anxiety really going up.

And, knowing your child, know what are the things that help comfort them and calm them, and having some of those tools available to use. So that when you see, recognize that healing your child, so that they start to recognize it, and that’s the first step and really being able to kind of help, help bridge that gap and help them in dealing with it.

And of course when it’s a clinical level of anxiety, you want to make sure that you’re working with a psychiatrist, or you know, someone in the medical field who really is experienced and working with those on the spectrum.

And in many cases these children don’t need medication, but sometimes they do to help bring that level down a little bit so that it’s manageable, because there’s nothing worse than seeing a child suffering, because they’re so fearful and anxious of things that are going on around them or how their body is feeling because they’re overwhelmed.

How Anxiety Triggers Work [0:13:00]

Gary Jesch:

Exactly, I’m glad you brought that up. Thank you. So, what are we gonna watch for? And this relates, I think, to all human beings, autistic or not, right? You know, because we all kind of have fears and worries and concerns like that to some level.

And so, a lot of times the thing is, in the world, there are what we call triggers. And a trigger can be something like a change in the weather, you know, bad stormy weather coming our way. It might be a trigger to make us overly concerned or overwhelmed about, you know, the future, right, because we don’t know the future. And so, we start to get fearful about what the weather could do to us. And that’s an anxious moment.

The social interactions, I think, is going to be you know, something that’s really important when it comes to autistic children. Because, you know, they already have the challenge of figuring out how to navigate in the world with their special needs.

And so, social interactions can, can set things off, it could be being in a crowded place, or noisy place where there are a lot of people or may be feeling alone in an empty, quiet spot. So, you don’t really know what could trigger that. But it’s definitely something can set it off.

And then dangerous animals and pretty much everybody I think, you know, gets excited or triggered by you know, a poisonous snake.

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah, I think if someone dropped a snake on me right now, you would see someone just regulate extremely quickly.

Gary Jesch:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That’s another way of saying you would scream and run away.

Leslie Baldwin:

Yes, yes, I would. And that would probably be difficult to get me to calm down. But yeah, we all have our issues with anxiety to some degree and but it’s a matter of you know, is it preventing you from being able to do the things you want to do?

Gary Jesch:

Right? I mean, if your phobia, and you know, yeah, if your phobia, meant that you had to look behind the door everywhere, every door you went through, then you would probably be needing to see the psychiatrist, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah, it would be time if I thought there was danger around every door. And, you know, and I think for many of these children, because they’re experiencing the world through a sensory system that might have some differences in how they’re perceiving things, they not may not be able to anticipate, you know, if there’s other children running around, and they may not be able to anticipate what’s going to happen.

So a light touch for a child might feel like they’re being attacked, and, you know, you really see kids that get that high anxiety level up in, you know, they can either dysregulate where they overreact, and it’s difficult to calm them down, or else, they almost shut down. And they are just done.

I frequently saw that with many kids that I’ve worked with, and you can’t really blame them in terms of how they’re experiencing some of the things around them, whether it’s things that suddenly brighten the classroom, or fluorescent lights that are buzzing. Their sensory system is wired in a different way, and that’s just driving them over the edge.

So, you really have to be a detective. And then help them learn how to cope with some of those things, or else help them adapt, you know, adapt the environment so that it’s easier for them. And so, you know,  not distressing.

Gary Jesch:

And I bet moms can relate to that a lot, too. Next, we kind of take a look at the triggers that are associated with autism that we know about. And there’s a lot of sensitivity there to these triggers. You know, change and unpredictability, right, falling out of a schedule, that’s a routine. You know, we talked about in Part Two, a lot about setting up routines, for autistic children, so that they kind of know what to expect in their day is predictable.

And there’s anxiety or a trigger when something might interrupt that, right. And there are number of things that can come up in a person’s day to day that could trigger that. Sensory challenges, you know, things that they hear, sirens or dogs barking or, you know, things like that, that can trigger anxiety. Appliances, washing machine might, you know, be jolting or whatever, things like that in the home, right.

And then what we call uncommon and specific fears, and those are things that maybe, they just acquired one way or another maybe, you know, early times in their childhood, they became frightened of something like a bug crawling across the floor. And the anxiety around that gets heightened more and more all the time. You know, so there’s a number of things that we can associate with autism and anxiety.

And when I talked about it, in Part One, I believe, I was sharing my thoughts about the feeling of strong anxiety associated with like stage fright. And for typical people, you know, you ask somebody to go get up and do a presentation in front of, you know, 100 strangers and don’t screw it up, or you’ll lose your job. There’s the trigger, right?

And then it’ll stay with the person, that trigger will actually stay with the person in anticipation, and the anxiety builds and builds. And so, we’re going to be talking about what happens when it builds, and it seems to kind of feed on itself.

And I’ve seen in my experience of working with autistic children, how, that’s almost like a daily thing that they because maybe of brain chemistry, or other reasons that the heightened anxiety is just a part of their daily life.

Have you seen that too, in your experience where you just, there may not be like a general trigger for it, it’s just always seems to be present and, you know, rarely goes away?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah, I have observed that, and some of the autistic individuals that I’ve worked with, and, you know, it’s, I think they’re just like all of us who have differences in how our nervous system works. It’s the same for them. And, you know, some may have a tendency to be more over-reactive, and that might go along with their nervous system and how they’re experiencing things.

And it’s more difficult for them to regain regulation, both physically and emotionally. So they need more support to help them work through some of the things that are challenging, but talking to parents over the years they’re always very good about being able to say, well, when at this time of day, we always have a meltdown, or, you know, whenever we’re going to be going to do this, you know, oh, it’s a disaster.

And I tried all these things, and we really have to brainstorm and think: How can we best support this family and this child to not live in perpetual state of anxiety and fear? Because then you have families that really get traumatized from having a child that might be over-reactive to many things.

You’re trying to mitigate that all the time, and yet, it’s virtually impossible to totally avoid all anxiety triggers. So, you know, you really have to look at what we can do to help them cope.

Coping Mechanisms for Anxiety [0:21:50]

Gary Jesch:

Yeah, let’s take a look at some of the coping mechanisms that we’ve seen in the community. And this, maybe it’s not necessarily a coping mechanism, but it’s a reaction to the anxiety in this particular case, right. The anger and irritability, is basically like, if you think back over to that Feelings Wheel, I was showing you where the emotions are kind of shifting around a bit.

And right next to anxiety and fearful is anger and tension and the energy around irritability, all the way to the extreme of rage, right? So, we’ve seen that also, where our anxiety gets changed all the time, just can’t quite stick with it. Just always hopping around. And there’s a probably like, a tendency to, just to try to avoid. Yeah, yes, you all isolate…

Leslie Baldwin:

I think there’s a lot of avoidance.

Gary Jesch:

Right, right. So, avoidance and isolation, right? So, and if you can change it at the last minute, like simply saying, I don’t want to go, you know, or I’m not going. Or if you’re angry, darn it, I’m not going. Yeah, you know, yeah, to make a point, but, you know, autistic kids, sometimes they just, they find something that seems to work for them in terms of, you know, lowering the anxiety in one way or another, and then they gravitate toward that.

Leslie Baldwin:

Right.

Gary Jesch:

This wearing a jacket when it’s warm type of thing, or a hoodie over your head or weighted blankets. And also, they can be successful, right for the mom and the child sometimes could really help.

Leslie Baldwin:

Well, you know, there’s a lot of strategies that can be used to help alleviate some of the anxiety and you know, in terms of what’s going on. You know, we always look at the individual child as a whole and try to determine what is going on, that might be a trigger. And then what are the things that they find comforting, and many times, you know, like wearing a jacket when it’s warm.

Well, that might be to do with the weight of a jacket and feeling more secure. I can think of an example hopefully, my niece won’t mind me. Um, hearing on she’s on the spectrum and in her 20s, and with COVID, having to stay home, hasn’t been so bad for her. But when she does go out, she’s really pretty happy to put a mask on because I think she feels a little more hidden. And she’s not feeling like people are going to pick her out of the crowd or something or think something’s different about her.

For many people, it’s the weighted blankets or the stimming that you see. Sometimes you’ll see rocking, waving the hands, different things, and feelings very familiar with that. What I’ve really come to appreciate is that any of those on the spectrum are using stimming to organize their sensory system to stay regulated.

So, in situations where you see they might be anxious or a little overwhelmed, you’re going to see an increase in the stimming. But to me it’s a really effective coping mechanism for many of them, so that they can regain, stay regulated and not have to flee—not have that fight or flight take over where they can’t stay in a situation.

You don’t want to take that away from them because it is a good coping mechanism. And, you know, we really do find, it can be very helpful.

Gary Jesch:

Yeah, because of the sensory overload, physical activities, or responses are often connected to the feelings, right? And I mean, that even happens with you and me, if we were really anxious, we might feel something funny in our stomach, right? Or we might start to shake uncontrollably, it might just be a little, seemed like a ton to me, but to somebody watching me, they wouldn’t really understand it, but that’s kind of what happens with feelings when they get to be amplified kind of beyond.

Leslie Baldwin:

Right. Yeah, I don’t think, you know, in general, that, you know, that the experience of anxiety itself is that different than neurotypical people. I think it’s just triggered by different things in, you know, a sensory system that isn’t working as well for them as it could be.

As well as, you know, some challenges with being able to regulate, you know, really regulate that emotional, the mind body connection, and realizing, you know, how you can really work with it at all levels to help bring that anxiety level down.

The Anxiety Loop [0:27:25]

Gary Jesch:

Right, right. Good point, good point. Excellent. So, I mentioned this a little bit earlier, Leslie, you know, what we see is that these problems that you’ve been telling us about, having trouble with regulation, social motivation, social anxiety, put that person into what’s called an anxiety loop.

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah.

Gary Jesch:

So, let’s take a look at what we think a loop is and we’ve got to thank Andrew again, for his great job.

Leslie Baldwin:

He did a wonderful job putting the material together. It’s really helpful.

Gary Jesch:

So, in this particular graphic, what we’re indicating is, is at the center, is the anxiety, the feeling, okay? And it’s like a gear that turns and it drives the whole negative process, basically, right? And kind of a step by step way, going from the top and around clockwise.

So, we know that this is just symbolic here, trying to get an idea across and that doesn’t really happen like this, but this is a way to speak about it.

So, when you know you’re anxious, right? Then you have a problem with regulating your emotions, right? You know, things right away, whether it’s physical sensations, or other emotions that are tied to it, you start to feel like they’re getting away from you a bit.

And then when you can’t regulate your emotions, then the social interactions become more challenging.

Leslie Baldwin:

Mm hmm.

Gary Jesch:

Right. And so, then that enters the picture. And then when you have trouble socializing, and you know, being in the presence of others, then you become less motivated to be in the presence of others.

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah, absolutely.

Gary Jesch:

And because of that, you’re back into the top of the loop again, your anxious feelings seem to get heightened right. Or maybe you get it’s so wild for you that you get a shot of adrenaline, you know. And it can happen in a blink of an eye to go from, you know, being in an elevator to having a panic attack, whether you’re autistic or not. A lot of this applies to everybody, I think. Right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Right. Right. And, and I think, you know, when you’re, when your anxiety gets so high and your autonomic nervous system kind of takes over, it is difficult. I mean, we’ve all been in those where something happens and that fight or flight response comes in.

And you know, most of us have at least some tools, coping tools to bring ourselves back down and kind of like, okay, what’s going to help? A cup of tea, grab a blanket, go under the covers, you know, whatever is going to help you kind of calm down.

But um, for these kids, I think we really need to be respectful and recognize that behaviors that we might see associated with anxiety, you know, really looking at what is the root, I mean, these kids and young adults are not acting out to just act out, there’s something going on, and we should really be helping them recognize that.

Especially when you see it start to escalate, doing some co regulating with them can help them regain kind of some control.

So, they think, it’s because it’s pretty scary. I think for a lot of them when they become, you know, so dysregulated, they feel very out of control.

Gary Jesch:

Yeah, that’s, the anxiety loop is based in fear, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah.

Gary Jesch:

Yeah, that’s the driver. And in part two of our discussions, we spoke a bit about research that’s being done on the brain, and brain chemistry.

And there’s been positive research that’s indicating that in the part of the brain called the amygdala, which is pretty much in charge of everybody’s fight or flight responses…

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah.

Gary Jesch:

That the brain chemistry is different enough to where that may be causing symptoms of autism, and the out-picturing of heightened anxiety, that just doesn’t go away, right, or it’s more easily triggered, let’s say, in some cases.

And when we have that along with difficulties in communicating, speech disorders, or whatever that loop becomes something that you really have to be aware of.

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah, absolutely.

Gary Jesch:

I think I’m about done here. I had one more slide, just to say, and I think that you, you actually covered this one about how, when your anxieties not being addressed, then that’s the other. That’s kind of like the thing that really amps up the looping, right? Is that there’s no recovery period, or the recovery period is maybe hours away, or whatever, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Right or not, a complete recovery from it. And then, you know, you go on to the next thing incident, but kind of set something off.

And, you know, I think as you were talking about the research, it reminded me of a recent study that came out regarding the brain, and they were doing some functional MRIs, and a study that came out in January of 2021, showing that, you know, the differences in the autonomic nervous system of those individuals on the spectrum, versus those who are neurotypical. And they were showing some significant differences with a functional MRI. So, the brain is not reacting the same.

So, these kids and young adults are experiencing things differently, and they’re autonomic. I can’t even say, autonomic system is really not, you know, reacting in a way that’s very helpful for them, it can trigger more easily and more intensely. And I know they’re going to be doing a lot more research on that.

But I don’t think anybody who has a family member on the spectrum with anxiety or who has worked with those with autism and anxiety would be too surprised by that.

How Avatar Adventures Help [0:34:15]

Gary Jesch:

Right, exactly. The way that it out-pictures in the home on a daily basis is enough to give you an idea. So yeah, very well put.

So, you know, Leslie and I are here to tell folks about Avatar Adventures, and how our technology of live animation and these short sessions can actually help reduce anxiety, and increase comfort levels and attention.

So, this is the fun part of our webinar. You know, we’ve talked a little bit about some of the problems and so, now you want to present some ideas that we have about a solution.

Leslie Baldwin:

Absolutely.

Gary Jesch:

Andrew has created another great slide for us here called the Invirtua Effect.

And so, what we’re saying here, to make it nice and clear to everybody is that these cartoon characters, these interactive Avatars that I’ve developed. When they’re, when a child autistic child is in a session with one of these guys, well, the first things that we notice is that the anxiety levels start to come down and we see it in several ways.

One would be like, say that cartoon character itself is not intimidating, and doesn’t desire eye contact. And so, it’s not placing as kind of like a social demand of any type on the child, just to kind of a coexisting type of feeling, you know, in a fun environment where the Avatar can be the child’s friend and sidekick in a way.
And develop that trust, that they don’t have to worry that there’s nothing that will overwhelm them coming their way.

Leslie Baldwin:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Gary Jesch:

So that’s kind of the first step, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah, I think it’s pretty magical to see, you know, an individual interacting with the Avatars, because you do see a change in the interest level, and intrigue and wanting to engage rather than kind of get away, sometimes when they feel like ‘I’ve had enough of people.’

And also, you know, what we’ve seen is many kids can be overwhelmed by the emotions that a human face shows, which is why you see some hangs or the side look, you know, we’re their handle looking at you stimming, trying not to be overwhelmed by what you’re doing and with your face and you see that is so reduced in working with the characters.

And it’s just really fun. It’s a fun way to get the kids interactive, and practicing social skills and how long you can do a back and forth flow of communication and engagement. It’s really magical, I think.

Gary Jesch:

Thank you. So, what we’re going to do is we’re going to take you through what we call this Invirtua effect. And then it just another minute or two, we’ll be able to have a little presentation of our technology live in real time here, during this webinar. So, let’s take a look at what Andrew has given us in terms of looking a little more closely at the flow.

So, there’s the step by step view of this. So, number one, the Avatar, that’s Marley right there in the upper left-hand corner. So, Marley reduces the anxiety, and with less anxiety, more learning can take place. A child’s more open to conversation, to expression, maybe to see the emotion, the facial expressions on the Avatar’s face. And, you know, it’s a familiar face there. It’s the same familiar face every time. Right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Right. Right,

Gary Jesch:

Sometimes, you know, a therapist, she may have her hair done a different way, or wearing a different top or, you know, glasses that are different from day to day. With the Avatars there, they show up the same all the time with a smile, you know, so it’s playing.

Leslie and I are going to talk a little bit about the play aspect of it next. But that’s really the environment and the atmosphere that the Avatar Adventure works in, is a playful atmosphere.

Leslie Baldwin:

Right? And Gary, if you don’t mind my mentioning that, also, in addition to, you know, the child interacting with the Avatar, they do have, you know, we do really ask that either a parent be present with a child, or a therapist or, you know, a trusted adult who is with them and can give them support to stay engaged with the character.

And, you know, it’s really a team effort in that we look at, because we want, you know, children to always feel like they’re in a safe environment. Especially when you know you’re working in this kind of modality.

Gary Jesch:

Absolutely, good point. When I’m an Avatar pilot, and I’m showing up there as one of my characters, I always want to have a mom and my guy on the other side, in these video calls. We don’t really work with kids that are all by themselves.

And then we try to make recordings a lot of times too, and the recordings serve several purposes, they keep things nice and safe. And it’s also a great, great way to go back and review how the interaction went between the Avatar and the child after the fact.

And even to be able to call and rate it for certain events within the experience itself. The events that might tell us about improvements in speech, for example, right, or observations about, you know, the child’s attitude as it goes, in an up and down kind of way. Right.

Leslie Baldwin:

So, right it’s a really, I think, by taping the sessions, it’s a really great way to document progress. And to see, you know, what are the areas that they’re progressing in? How are they reacting in it?

And then always talking with families about how do you make adjustments as you go along, so that you can help the family and the child meet the goals. You know, the reason that they’re doing, you know, involved with the Avatars.

Gary Jesch:

Yeah, absolutely. And then in our step number three, small successes adding up to overall progress. This is what Leslie calls the gleam in their eye. Right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah, the gleam in their eye. I’m always looking for the gleam in their eye, when you really see, they’re quite delighted to be interacting.

And, you know, that’s when you know, they are there, they are present with you, they’re robustly engaged. And that is when you’re into helping them learn to keep that anxiety level down so that they can stay in an interaction, because the longer they can stay in an interaction, the more they can learn.

Gary Jesch:

And the two things are incompatible with each other, aren’t they? The gleam in the eye and fear.

Leslie Baldwin:

Right, yeah, you aren’t, you aren’t gonna see that go into or the gleam in the eye, when a child or someone has a lot of anxiety or fear that, that will not be happening, you will know be recognizable, you know, yeah, it’s hard to co-exist.

Gary Jesch:

Yeah, it’s that playful sign in the moment that play has taken over, and curiosity, and maybe even a little courage is behind it. Some happy feelings are starting to come through. And so, that’s why we love it.

That branches over to the improved self-confidence, and the pride of accomplishment that then we as Avatar pilots, celebrate with the parents and the child for you know, taking it all the way through. And that is what we call the Invirtua Effect.

So, let’s take a look now, there you go. And, you know, Leslie, I got to let you jump in here for this one. I love this. And I hope it gets the idea across. What we’re really talking about is for everybody, but we focus on helping parents, you know, dramatically improve the lives of their autistic children, right? Radically help them reach their full potential. And what does that look like here? Tell us, take us through this diagram, would you?

Leslie Baldwin:

Sure, you know, as an educator, and then you know, using kind of a mental health model and working therapeutically with these children over the years, you know, what I’ve really learned is that, you know, you really need to look at the developmental ladder where this child or individual is at.

But you know, it all starts with physical and emotional regulation. And that’s why we focus so much on anxiety, and really learning to figure out what’s going on causing the underlying anxiety and helping a child learn to cope and address it, so that it isn’t so overwhelming, and that they can enjoy functioning in many different settings.

So, that’s the first thing because if you stay at that heightened state, it’s very hard to move on to the next level of being able to engage with anybody else, focus and pay attention, communicate meaningfully, both verbally and with gestures, non-verbal, and then to go on to shared social problem solving and independent problem solving.

So you really go back kind of down the ladder and start, you know, which is where I feel like the strength with Invirtua is it gives these kids and young adults time to practice staying regulated, staying engaged in a way that is fun, and playful, and, you know, something that they want to do rather than, oh, here, we’re gonna sit down and do flashcards and help me.

You know, it’s just, you know, you can always make a game with flashcards, but, um, I think you really want to get that emotional engagement. And, you know, you start to see that gleam in the eye and, you know, you’re headed in the right direction.

Gary Jesch:

Exactly, and incremental improvement in any one of these four, gives them more problem-solving capabilities.

Leslie Baldwin:

Right.

Gary Jesch:

And so that leads to independence and self-confidence.

Leslie Baldwin:

Right.

Gary Jesch:

And in cases where autism is really tough, you know, even a little bit can go a long way toward helping out and having a better life.

Leslie Baldwin:

Absolutely. I think whatever we can do, to help these children and their families, you know, have a better quality of life is priceless, because life can be really difficult, at times, especially when you’re on the spectrum and living with really high levels of anxiety.

And, you know, we’ve seen the suicide rates for those on the spectrum. Sometimes they’re children that are feeling suicidal, or adults that, you know, feel it’s just too much.

I think, whatever we can do to help them be able to work on being able to get rid of some of that anxiety and feel good about themselves, and really understand what’s going on internally with the emotions and physical feelings, it’s just so important. It’s vital.

The Power of Play [0:47:20]

Gary Jesch:

That is vital. So, you know, Leslie has mentioned the power of play just a couple times before. And I’m right there, whether you know, that we love to see children play, because that’s really where, you know, there are good things that are happening, and we call it play, but it’s really how children, you know, start to understand the world around them, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Gary Jesch:

Even when the young adults are gonna be, you know, expressing their inner child or whatever, it’s when they play that shows up. And the parents of family members, these are the child’s first teachers.

And so, you folks that have that role can definitely use play in powerful ways to do this. And your most effective asset is your own creativity.

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah, I always say anything can be a game. And I mean, I can make anything into a game after you’re, you know, doing this. And it’s, it’s a lot more fun. If you can be playful, and, and children learn through play, they learn about interactions with others, they learn about the world around them and how things work.

And it’s just, it’s so important, it can be really joyful, and great. You know, there’s always great learning opportunities to play and looking at what the child’s interests are, which I think we really try to work with families to find out, you know, about their child and what their interests are, and really utilize that, to really draw them in and engage them, so that they can stay regulated and engaged.

Gary Jesch:

You know, and I think Mr. Rogers would agree with you, right? Yeah, and also the Muppets, Jim Henson and the folks at Sesame Street as an example. The puppets have always been a great, playful way to engage kids.

Leslie Baldwin:

Right.

Look at the Avatars [0:49:35]

Gary Jesch:

And so, we’re gonna keep on doing that. So, let’s tell everybody a little bit about the Avatar Adventures. I’ll kind of be a little brief here. I’ve gone over these sites in their previous programs, and I know that you want to take a look now at the Avatars themselves.

So, what we call an Avatar Adventure is a video call held in the home. It’s not Zoom. But it’s similar to Zoom. And when we say we both, that means me as the Avatar pilot and you as the parent, or caregiver or therapist can help the autistic child with new sensory experiences and learning new things along the way, in a fun and safe environment.

So, the Avatars are animated in real time, we have sound effects, we, the kids can touch the screens, right, you can touch a screen. Sometimes that makes the Avatar tickle a little bit, you never know what an Avatar is going to do when you touch it. And we can also combine a wide variety of educational content, loosely called our curriculum. And it’s customized for that child’s experience in all cases.

Sometimes we may reuse something that we used successfully with another child a year ago or whatever. But in other cases, our work prepares a graphic and video and even sound effect content, for a particular session, depending on how we’re doing and where things are going with our kids there. So, it’s a really kind of a one of a kind type of deal, that you won’t see anywhere else. In fact, that’s one of the things is that you don’t see it anywhere else. So, we’re working really hard to, to show people.

Speaking of what you won’t see it anywhere else, this is our gallery of animated characters. You can see we have talking babies that dance even and speak, our fish characters from a show that we have called ‘My Fish People,’ Marley and Morphie, Morphie and Marley, and Genus and Delta, Stickler. And then we have a little elf character, Syber Santa, down in the foreground, you’ll see an Avatar we call Malachi —when I was working with an autistic boy, he was able to let us use his likeness to turn it into an Avatar.

And this is a great one, Leslie, you see me use him to do demonstrations and simulations of Malachi in different situations. And where an autistic child can practice with the Avatar, you know, to get comfortable with how to respond, and what to do or what to expect in those scenarios, like going to McDonald’s or meeting somebody for the first time and other social engagement type of things.

So, as I said, all these sessions are done live in personalized video calls through our virtual clinic. And when we bring a client into the virtual clinic, I would say at least half the time, or maybe even more Leslie, is spent discussing everything we can with the moms, about their child and what’s going on, before we even start the first Avatar session.

And then after we get into it, we go back and forth. And we meet with them again and go well, what did you think? How did things go on your side? And what do you think? You know, give us some more ideas and feedback.

So, we’re constantly, we’re doing more than just a 25-minute session in there, we’re working quite hard through that. Things are improving every step of the way.

Leslie Baldwin:

Right. And Gary, I like your plan on that. Because I think it’s so important to partner with the family and when you’re working, because they know their kids better than anyone.

And it’s just so vital to get feedback and input and, you know, deciding on the goals and what’s working and what isn’t, I don’t think you can get better feedback then from, you know, a family member who knows them better than anybody.

Gary Jesch:

Exactly. And therapists also, we don’t want to leave them out. In this picture here, this was taken at a clinic at the University of Nevada Reno, where I live, an autism clinic. And so, I was actually the Avatar pilot in the other room. Okay, and kind of like the observation room and you can actually do this with a bedroom and a living room even.

But the therapist was in the front of the big screen TV with the child and able to go through the entire session with the child. And also, we take input from the therapist in terms of guidance on how they want their goals to be met in these Avatar sessions, and so it’s a real cooperation there.

So, this was a two-room setup. We’ve done a lot of those and now switching over to all video calls. We still have room for therapists that want to come in and join us in the video calls as well. And those are very successful.

And I think the thing that makes it successful is that we’re speaking with the therapists in advance of doing the call, that we need to call with them in the session right there with the child. And then afterwards, we have another pass or consultation with the therapist and we record notes and that type of thing.

So, you know, again, like you’ve said, you know, it’s that family circle, whether it’s a therapist, a mom, grandparents, siblings or whatever, even using telehealth. We’re actually very successful at bringing others in, so there you go.

Alright, so the time has come Leslie.

Leslie Baldwin:

Alright.

Live Demonstration of an Avatar Adventure [0:55:40]

Gary Jesch:

The live session. And today’s session is going to be done with this Avatar that I’ve named Pooch. That’s that big dog right there in the front row here. That’s a cartoon character by the name of Pooch and sometimes I even play this little audio of ‘Who let the dogs out.’ Do you remember?

Well, we won’t get everybody to shake it out of your seats on it for now, but just hum quietly to yourself. And I’m going to switch over to Pooch right here.

Leslie Baldwin:

Okay, great.

Gary Jesch:

There we go. Big screen for the big dogs. Hello, Leslie. Oh, how are you doing?

Leslie Baldwin:

Hey Pooch, how are you doing today?

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Oh, I am just fantastic. You know, I’ve been chasing sticks all day here today.

And, you know, I just, if I saw one more stick, I don’t know if I would get up and go after it or not. How about you? What are you doing?

Leslie Baldwin:

I have not chased after any sticks today.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

No sticks today?

Leslie Baldwin:

No sticks. So where are you today Pooch?

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Well, I’m over in the backyard. Yep, that’s my thing is, you know, but I have a bone over here. I think I have a bone over here somewhere. I buried it a few weeks ago, might be just about ready now. Yeah, you gotta let them sit in the dirt for quite a while, you know, before they really get delicious.

Leslie Baldwin:

They really get good after their buried?

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Oh, that’s best. You got it. Oh. So yeah, one of the purposes of coming out here today with me is to show some of our friends what it looks like, they have kind of very good content going on in a session, an Avatar Adventure with one of our kids.

So, tell you what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna see if I can bring on here. How about this, a cool little presentation about sports balls.? Yeah, beach balls. You like beach balls?

Leslie Baldwin:

I do. I love beach balls. They’re a lot of fun to play with. I love to kick them.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Yeah, they’re so light and they just fly. Don’t they? Oh, there goes one now? Oh, yeah.

So, so we could talk about beach balls and all kinds of fun stuff like say, look at these two little guys, here right? Now, you know, let’s pretend for a minute that you’re a little Leslie right.

Leslie Baldwin:

Okay.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

And let’s say that you just have trouble figuring it out. You know, what kind of facial expressions a person might have, but you’re little bashful about, you know, looking right into their eyes. Right, you know, and trying to see and read it that way. So maybe you could use a little practice. What do you think? Would you practice?

Leslie Baldwin:

I would dothat.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

You would work on that with me maybe? That would be great. So yeah, let’s take a look. So, if you look really closely right over here, at this little girl, right, let’s look at this little girl and tell me what you see.

Leslie Baldwin:

She looks happy. She’s smiling. And it looks like she is trying to run up to that ball.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Yeah, so she might be feeling pretty good right about now. Huh?

Leslie Baldwin:

Mmm. Yeah, she looks like she’s having fun.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Yeah, having fun, you know, enjoying her time. And what about the little boy?

Leslie Baldwin:

He looks like he’s having fun too. I think that might be her brother.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Yeah, yeah. So, they got a little family time going on. They’re going down the beach. You know, I’ve even done that with the other puppies in my family. You know, we go down and play in the water and we kind of bond a little more and then we all talk about it when we get back. So, it’s about who had the biggest stick, you know what I mean?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Fun. A lot of fun. A lot of fun. All right, you did really great. Let’s take a look at another one as an example. Okay.

Leslie Baldwin:

Okay.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

All right now I, I’ve labeled this one for you so that you guys should be like, no mistake. What does that say? What does that say?

Leslie Baldwin:

Soccer ball.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Soccer Ball. Yeah. So, you know, you’re getting a little bit of a reading lesson here too today, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah, I get to practice.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

You get to practice and you can relate with the label, with the image, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yes. What, what kind of balls do you like?

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Oh, I like those red ones, you know, that are about the size of a human being’s fist. Because they fit in my mouth.

Oh, yes, they do. And I can run right after them and they bounce like crazy when they hit the ground. It is fantastic. I tell you what. Oh, look at these guys.

Leslie Baldwin:

Oh, there’s a lot of kids.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

There are, and a lot of facial expressions. Huh? Wow, I wonder what these faces are going to tell us. Let’s, how about starting with this little guy right behind me with his head down. What kind of feelings would we see, I mean, but we can’t really know for sure, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Right.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Because, but we can just take a look at the shoes right? When the person is in a game, so that would be the context, their head is down. They’re not necessarily sad, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

He looks like he’s really intent on trying to get that ball but he’s trying to get ahead of the other kids maybe.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Yeah, good call Leslie. I might say that he looks determined, right?

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Right, that he’s got this feeling of “I’m gonna really put a lot of energy into this and nobody’s gonna stop me.” What do you think? Does that make sense?

Leslie Baldwin:

I think you’re right. So, Pooch are you, Pooch are you on the team with the kids with the red shirt? Since you have a red shirt?

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

I only wish. Yeah, I only wish Leslie, that’s very cute of you. But no, they don’t let me on the field with these guys. I’m normally four-legged. You know? They won’t like…

Leslie Baldwin:

Yeah, okay.

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

Yeah. No and I’n covered with fur, but thank you. Yeah. As furry friends you know, we have to sit and watch or they yell at us.

So good call. Oh, let’s see, we got time for a little bit more. Oh, my goodness, our  hour’s up. But let’s show you one more anyway. So, there’s a baseball. Here’s, I like the size. And there’s a couple of boys playing some baseball. Everybody has an idea about what’s going on here with Avatar Adventures, pretty well.

Leslie Baldwin:

I think so. I think you have done a good job. And you know, I think you are a lot of fun. I think you can, you know, I think you, you can tell that you really like all the balls. Cuz you’re a dog, right?

Gary Jesch as Pooch:

I’m a dog. There’s the ball, so well. Oh. Oh, hey, that’s great. Thank you so much. Leslie, you’ve been a lot of fun. I’m gonna have to go now. But we’ll see you guys later, bye, bye.

Leslie Baldwin:

Bye, Pooch.

Gary Jesch:

Oh, yeah. Well, that was a fun one. There you go. Thank you. Great job. Great job. So yeah, we’re gonna head up and wrap this thing up here. But let’s do that here.
We just basically, I think we’ve covered everything we want. People are going to ask you though, Leslie, you know, how do you go about scheduling an Avatar Adventure? So…

Leslie Baldwin:

Right…

How to Start Your Avatar Adventure [1:04:25]

Gary Jesch:

If somebody calls, what would you tell them?

Leslie Baldwin:

I would tell them, you know, the first thing you want to do is contact us through the web site on Invirtua.com. And you can set up an appointment, ask any questions you want, before you set up an appointment.

But set up a preliminary appointment to kind of go over what your goals are, what type of Avatar you think your child might really enjoy and how you know, what you, you know, what are the things that you most want to work on, and also to tell us about your child or young adult.

And then the next thing we can do, as part of that is do a demo, so you can kind of see how we work and how you would be interacting, also, as a parent or therapist. Then the next step is, once we have all that information, and people are ready to go, we schedule your appointment, and you get to begin your Avatar Adventure.

And, you know, it’s pretty, pretty simple and easy to do. And, um, you know, I think it’s, you know, I look at this as a really great addition. And it’ll be, it’s not going to replace other therapies that you’re doing for your child, but it can really be a nice addition, especially for those that are working on the physical and emotional regulation, on staying within an interaction and the back and forth flow of communication.

Gary Jesch:

Absolutely. And we also work really well with speech therapists, when it comes to helping with reading and language as well.

So well, and I just want to mention that the cost is actually only $30 per session, we can give you a kind of a bundle deal if you want to sign up for at least four of them at 25.

And, you know, folks, now we’re looking at that child tax credit, coming our way here, pretty soon. And so, this would be a great place to invest $100 a month, out of that child tax credit to help your autistic child, you know, and use some of that money for something that will really surprise you.

And Leslie, you know what? We’re just going to mention real quickly Invirtua.com, you’ll get a lot more info there. And then I just want to double check and see if we have a question from someone in the audience.

Leslie Baldwin:

Okay, great.

Short Conversation with Nancy (a therapist) [1:07:05]

Gary Jesch:

And I see we have Nancy on the line. Nancy, I’m going to go ahead. And if you’d like to ask Leslie or me a question, I’m going to unmute you here. Or you can take the mute off yourself if you like. Did you have a question you wanted to ask us?

Nancy:

Well, it was at the beginning of the session. Thank you. And it was, I was having trouble getting my, my audio and getting going. So, I didn’t have a specific question. But thank you.

Gary Jesch:

You’re very welcome. What did you think? What did you think when you saw the demonstration about the Avatar? And how it’s interactive like that?

Nancy:

Well, I’m a speech pathologist. And so, I was thinking about how I would interact with my own students. What I was wondering, and I don’t think that this is what you’re offering. I was wondering if we get to purchase the use of Avatars and be the voice for the Avatars ourselves?

Gary Jesch:

No, actually, the way it works is that, you would schedule a session where we would handle that for you.

So, you would pretty much you know, give us the guidance, as we mentioned earlier about what you want to have happen in the session. And then, we would control the Avatar and run the session under your supervision with you there preferably. Does that work okay for you? Do you think it would that work?

Nancy:

I don’t know, I’d have to think about that. How that would be. I mean, I’m thinking of about a couple of kids that I use video practice with, and I don’t know how they would. I don’t know how they would respond.

But also, for me, as a therapist, I only know from what I’m going to present, what I’m going to say right at that moment…

Leslie Baldwin:

Responding to the moment. I get that…

Nancy:

Right.

Leslie Baldwin:

That’s a good point. And the nice thing about the interactive Avatars is with Gary and, you know, kind of behind the scenes, he not only can interact, but he can see, you know what’s going on. On the other end with the webcam, you know, he can see how a child or you’re working with and a therapist is reacting, so he can also follow the lead of what you’re doing as a therapist.

So, as you know, having worked with a lot of these kids on, I look at it as kind of an additional tool that can be utilized especially for those that sometimes can be difficult to keep their attention and stay engaged or stay regulated. This can really help, does that make sense?

Gary Jesch:

Yeah, she’s going back to muting herself there. So yeah, thank you, Leslie, that makes total sense.

And we’re just like to offer to Nancy or anybody else that, you know, is watching this webinar, that we’d be more than happy to do a session with the child at no cost.
So if you’re not really sure how that that child is going to react, go ahead and invite us to do it, one of our Avatar Adventures anyway, and we’ll take the time to learn about the child and to learn about the approach that you want us to take, and we’ll go out, we’ll do a session, just as if you were, you know, signed up with us, so that you can really get a feel for whether it’s going to work for that particular child, whether it’s going to be a fit with that family. So…

Nancy:

I do have another question. And it has to do with confidentiality. How is that dealt with?

Gary Jesch:

Sure. So, our software for our virtual clinic is produced by a company called Simple Practice. And it’s a software for actually, professional therapists like yourself that want to set up telehealth sessions.

And its fully HIPAA compliant as far as protection of private information is concerned. We decided to go the extra mile, because we knew we were going to be working with professionals that we just take this so seriously.

So, we’re users of the Simple Practice platform. And I’d be happy to show you through there. So, everything is completely confidential. And anything that’s done in terms of sharing is only done with permission. And always, you know, with known parties that either you as the therapist or the parent approves of…

Leslie Baldwin:

Right. Yeah, yeah, you’re the, if there’s a recording, it’s never shared with anyone else. It’s always kept confidential and private, unless there is permission on behalf and you know, with a signed consent. Because we do feel very protective of any client that we’re working with.

Gary Jesch:

And if you go on the website, you’ll actually see where we’ve received permission from most of our moms actually, to show the success that we’ve had with their children, and share it with other people in the community, as a way of encouraging them that it’s safe and trustworthy, and does show rapid improvement.

So, we’re not trying to, you know, fool anybody or fake anybody out, we just want to take what we’ve discovered with technology, and put it out there where people can benefit from it, and where kids can have better lives and reach their full potential. So well, Leslie, I think that that’s a great note to end this on, in our series and today’s webinar.

I want to thank you and Andrew, and everybody else, it’s been a lot to help us through this three-month long project. And, you know, once again, thanks for the hard work that you’ve put into it. Really appreciate it.

Leslie Baldwin:

Oh, thank you, Gary, and thank you for having me. I’ve enjoyed it. And, you know, I really encourage anyone who has questions or is curious, or, you know, I know between Gary and I, we’re always very happy to answer any questions or explain further exactly how this works.

But, you know, I want to assure everyone that this is all based on scientific research that’s been done prior to this technology, kind of catching up to it, so that now that we’re really looking at, you know, going back to Dr. Tom Buggy with the video modeling and kind of using that type of a concept to, you know, have a different modality to reach some of the kids that sometimes are harder to engage especially.

Gary Jesch:

There you go. So that’s a wrap. Thank you so much, Leslie. Best day everybody. Have a great one and thanks for being here. Bye. Bye.

Leslie Baldwin:
Thank you. Have a great one. Bye.

0 Comments

Submit a Comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Share This